South American shows

Discuss Maynard and Billy's side project
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Post by '][' [[]] [[]] ][, »

Christ on his throne, whoever mixed that shit was a fuckin' amateur.  The vocals were dry and way to up front in the mix.  The rest of the instruments were muddy and jumbled together.  It sounded like it was just the raw tracks hastily thrown together by Helen Keller.
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Post by Kittaan »

^ Yup Nate, as I commented early in this thread, the mix we got is horrendous.  One thing to consider though: did the mix that made it out to the webcast (and YouTube vids, etc) represent what the performers and audience heard?  I certainly fucking hope not.  As a musician (granted I'm just an amateur) I would have NEVER agreed to represent myself that way.  You gotta hope that we heard a rough mix that was not intended for public consumption.  Whatchathinkaboutthat?
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Post by Ravenpig »

mogeffingmog said
^ Oh come off it.  Jens Kidman, age 46, (Meshuggah) has been screaming, literally, since 1989.  Meshuggah have been around longer than Tool and Kidman sounds better now than he did in 89 when they released their first EP Psykisk Testbild.  Maynard is two years older, 48, and his voice is a pale comparison to what it used to be.


This (and to be fair neither was the person you responded to) is not a good/fair/etc point.  Two different people two different throats.

 

 

 
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Post by MOG »

Ravenpig said

mogeffingmog said
^ Oh come off it.  Jens Kidman, age 46, (Meshuggah) has been screaming, literally, since 1989.  Meshuggah have been around longer than Tool and Kidman sounds better now than he did in 89 when they released their first EP Psykisk Testbild.  Maynard is two years older, 48, and his voice is a pale comparison to what it used to be.


This (and to be fair neither was the person you responded to) is not a good/fair/etc point.  Two different people two different throats.

 

 

 


The point is quite simply that the apologist position that Maynard isn't 28 anymore doesn't hold up.  His voice is shot because he drinks a shit load of wine.  It is not like Maynard is pushing 65.  Christ Roger Waters worked with a vocal coach before his recent Wall tours and he sounded very good.  You think Maynard would ever work with a vocal coach?  Fuck no.  I brought up Jens because he has been doing it longer and is almost the same age.  Still going strong.  No one expects Maynard to sound like he did during the Aenima years, but I get sick of the bullshit excuses people make up.  Topgun is SPOT ON in his assessment

@Kittaan - I have no doubt he sounded solid at the Puscifer show you attended.  He is not extending himself at all.  Everything he writes for Puscifer is right in his sweet spot vocally.  Doesn't have to go too high or sing very loud.  Yes age has had an impact, but his obsession with wine has turned one of the better rock vocalist of our time into a shell of what he once was.
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Post by Ravenpig »

Oh my. All I'm saying is it is not fair to say that person A should sound like this because person B sounds like that.
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Post by doors »

Maynard is sounding more and more nasally.

Sinus issues?

Should buy a neti pot or something.
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Post by Busty McCracken »

Listening to the full show now & yeah the whole mix, sounds pretty average & Maynard sounds terrible. He was way up in the mix, when I saw them in Sydney last month, but didn't bother me too much, coz he sounded better to me than he had in a decade. Live in person, band & vocals sounded great to my ears.

 

I'm interested to hear back a decent recording comparison from my show to this one, to see if this recording does no justice, if I was wrong with how good he sounded or just whether he truly did sound like balls at Lollapalooza. 
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Post by hellboy »

I actually think Weak and Powerless is a deceptively hard song for Maynard to nail.  I'd suggest it's actually below his range, and has never sounded amazing live.  No doubt he sounds shit in that video, but judging bands based on shitty recordings on Youtube is quite frankly a waste of time.  Topgun isn't spot in with his assessment - I've heard to many good bootlegs, not to mentioned witnessed Maynard myself recently to agree with that assessment.

Why aren't we picking on mistakes that Billy make, or the rest of the band?  Why the obsession with Maynard needing to nail everything.

While we're making "excuses" and comparing apples and oranges, I'd like to point out that that while there are old singers which still sound good, there are just as many who have "lost it".  Sure we'd all love for Maynard to sing like an angel right up until he passes away, but that just ain't realistic.  

Comparing Maynard to Jens is stupid, because Jens really only has one range.  I could scream like that until the day I die, but that doesn't make me a better vocalist than Maynard.

And finally for Mog - calling other peoples arguments "excuses" while maintaining that your arguments are somehow more valid is insulting to everyone who's interested in this debate.
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Post by MOG »


hellboy1975 said  
*Comparing Maynard to Jens is stupid, because Jens really only has one range.  I could scream like that until the day I die, but that doesn't make me a better vocalist than Maynard.

And finally for Mog - calling other peoples arguments "excuses" while maintaining that your arguments are somehow more valid is insulting to everyone who's interested in this debate.


*Bullshit.

 

I have read very little in the way of concise arguments regarding Jimmy's vocal dynamics, particularly from a theory standpoint.  What I have read, time and again, is that everyone should "cut the guy some slack since he is older".  My arguments are not intended to insult.  If I wanted to insult, I would do so, in a far more direct and succinct manner.  If there is a perception of insult or slight, well, this is the internet, and I have no control over that, nor am I going to waste time pandering to delicate sensibilities.

I see, and hear, a man whose singing voice is failing him.  I AM concerned what this portends for the new Tool album.  One can only hope his contribution to the work is limited, particularly if Adam and Danny have spoken truthfully when saying that the new material is on the heavier side.  Something that, again, is out of Maynard's vocal range at this point.

As for Billy, his voice has always sucked.  Nothing new there.

Now, on a more positive note, I am really glad for the South American fans that are getting to see APC and Puscifer.  You could tell they were very excited and extremely positive.  I do hope Tool makes it down there at some point as those fans really deserve a visit.  I do applaud Maynard for making the trip with two bands.  It is easy for some of us more jaded folk to gloss over how significant an impact he has had on Rock music over the last 20 years.
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Post by Kittaan »

@ All - I made a couple of points on the Brazil performances above that got lost in the shuffle that I'd like to see get some discussion:

 

1) My perception is that MJKs solo vocals, while not pristine, were not THAT bad.  It was the harmony vocals that were offensive.

 

2) The mix on the broadcast (and subsequent YT vids) was just so bad that it boggles the mind if that's what the musicians were hearing / performing against.

 

Thoughts?  And please leave the bullshit out. 
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Post by joeypants »

A few points:

 

1) That video above is fucking AWFUL, but mostly because the mix is horrendous and Billy's harmonies are way, way off. Maynard has pretty much always sounded that way with that song. It's not a good live song vocally and never has been, especially if you're going to nitpick recording rather than experience it in the crowd.

 

2) There's no comparison at all between Jens Kidman and what he does, and what Maynard does.

 

3) I can find you bootlegs from a year ago where Maynard sounds really great, and bootlegs from 96-97 where he sounds like shit. My point being, like it or not, a sub-par sounding Tool show is still a rarity.
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Post by MOG »

Kittaan said
@ All - I made a couple of points on the Brazil performances above that got lost in the shuffle that I'd like to see get some discussion:

 

1) My perception is that MJKs solo vocals, while not pristine, were not THAT bad.  It was the harmony vocals that were offensive.

 

2) The mix on the broadcast (and subsequent YT vids) was just so bad that it boggles the mind if that's what the musicians were hearing / performing against.

 

Thoughts?  And please leave the bullshit out. 


His performance was poor. 

**From my earlier response to Hellboy in one of the Opiate Threads*

It isn't just screaming, it is his ability to reach high notes and project.  His voice has dropped at least an octave, and his ability to move between registers is dramatically diminished. 

His voice simply isn't strong enough to stand on it's own.  Take away the effects and force him to sing outside his comfort zone and the above performance is what you get.  There were a few decent moments, By and Down being one of them.  I really wish Billy would release that fucking song.
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Post by MOG »

joeypants said
A few points:

 

2) There's no comparison at all between Jens Kidman and what he does, and what Maynard does.


Remove Jens and insert Roger Waters.  Sounded excellent during the recent Wall tours.  Worked with a vocal coach to get his voice back up to par.
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Post by ziggy23 »

full show:

 


- You like noisy music?
- Yes. The louder the better. Stops me from thinking.
- You don't like to think? What do you like?
- Never thought about it.
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Post by joeypants »

mogeffingmog said

joeypants said
A few points:

 

2) There's no comparison at all between Jens Kidman and what he does, and what Maynard does.


Remove Jens and insert Roger Waters.  Sounded excellent during the recent Wall tours.  Worked with a vocal coach to get his voice back up to par.


Waters uses backing tracks extensively as well though. I'd be more down on Maynard if I hadn't seen him kill it in person numerous times the past few years. I've got no real complaints.

 
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Post by MOG »

joeypants said

mogeffingmog said


joeypants said
A few points:

 

2) There's no comparison at all between Jens Kidman and what he does, and what Maynard does.


Remove Jens and insert Roger Waters.  Sounded excellent during the recent Wall tours.  Worked with a vocal coach to get his voice back up to par.


Waters uses backing tracks extensively as well though. I'd be more down on Maynard if I hadn't seen him kill it in person numerous times the past few years. I've got no real complaints.

 


I haven't seen Maynard kill it since the Lateralus days.  Thankfully Adam, Danny and Justin more than make up for his failing voice.  The less involved Maynard is with the new album the better it will be.  Shame they can't just replace him.  I mean he is barely a member of Tool at this point as it is.

When playing live,  Tool plays loud enough to hide him in the mix.  Not the case with APC, which is why he makes a mess of songs he used to nail with regularity.  He is fine with Puscifer because again, everything he writes for Puscifer is in his comfort zone.

I will give Maynard credit when it comes to the studio.  The guy does know how to make himself sound good.  Just can't pull it off live any longer.  I am over this discussion.  You guys love Maynard.  I respect what he has done in the past, but at the moment the only thing I care about is that he does whatever it is he is going to do on the new album so I can listen to Adam, Danny, and Justin kill it one more time.
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Post by Kittaan »

@ Mog - Not everything needs to be black and white.  You've made valid points, as have others.  Dismissing an opinion because you assume someone "loves Maynard" is a little insulting.  Bias works both ways.  

 

Now that's out of the way...

 

Did you listen to the whole APC show?  Did you think MJK's solo vocals (I know the harmonies are painful) were all shit?  I definitely hear some nice moments, especially on the second listen, and not just when he's in his comfort zone.  I do think it was an off night for him, but as noted above, I think there were other factors at play.
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Post by MOG »

Kittaan said
@ Mog - Not everything needs to be black and white.  You've made valid points, as have others.  Dismissing an opinion because you assume someone "loves Maynard" is a little insulting.  Bias works both ways.  

 

Now that's out of the way...

 

Did you listen to the whole APC show?  Did you think MJK's solo vocals (I know the harmonies are painful) were all shit?  I definitely hear some nice moments, especially on the second listen, and not just when he's in his comfort zone.  I do think it was an off night for him, but as noted above, I think there were other factors at play.


Like I said I have no control over if insult is taken where none was intended.  Hellboy does view Tool through Rose Colored Glasses, although he is significantly more objective than the average Tool fan.  You are always objective, which is why I always enjoy hearing your perspective, even if I do not agree with it.  But Kittaan and Hellboy are NOT the average Tool fan.  You know this as well as I do.  People tend to want to protect their heroes, even when they are in decline.

I listened to a large portion of the show.  Maynard cannot hit high notes successfully, he struggles moving between registers.  He cannot sing loudly, certainly not with any power.  He lacks the dynamic range he used to have.  His singing voice is noticeably deeper, which is more a byproduct of his Wine drinking than age.  When he is in his range, he can still sound very good.  I mentioned By and Down.  Annihilation was solid.  The Noose wasn't bad either.  Rose was good.  Again all songs where he doesn't have to extend himself.

 
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Post by Kittaan »

^ Fair enough.  And not just because you gave me props, although thanks for that. 

 

I agree that blind devotion is lame and serves little purpose.  Call a spade a spade.  But likewise, if you are predisposed to find the negative, same applies.

 

I don't think we are that far off in the assessment of that performance.  I wish there was another night to compare it to, especially if the engineers responsible had the benefit of hearing their botched work and correcting for it.  

 

 
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Post by joeypants »

He's always gone up and down though. That's all I was saying. Taking one show and using that as evidence that "it's over" is kind of silly.

 

Last year he sounded as good as I could ever hope for (at his age, given the kind of music he's been doing for over 20 years) at the Atlanta show. And yet the NYC/NJ show was kind of limp overall. Most live singers are this way.
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Post by joeypants »

The beginning of the end

 


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Post by joeypants »

And here's another one from just over a year ago on the last night of the tour where you can tell how ravaged his "Tool voice" is after the wine he's drinking and touring and

 



 

 

Shit, he actually sounds pretty great.
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Post by joeypants »

Maybe Aenima doesn't push his voice enough though. Fair enough. Here's the same show, last night of a tour, where he actually botches the high stuff at the end of Pushit and sounds weak.

 



 

Fuck.
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