F O U R T H E Y E

jaimiej wrote:That is my point, I think all of you are so convinced that Josh is superior you're writing off Jeff's ability before you even really listen. You had clearly written off Jeff's version of Judith without even hearing it.

I have a hard time believing that any of you would even be able to tell the difference between the two of them in a live track and I think that says something. If anything, the only differences I notice are things that Jeff improved.

There's just something about Jeff's style that I don't like. I don't like the way his kit sounds, I mean listen to the loose snare on The Package compared to Josh sound. Huge different. Could be the way it's recorded but you still "feel" the difference. They're both great drummers, Josh is just better. I would be able to tell which one that plays pretty easy. Jeff is more slugish in my ears.

jaimiej wrote:That is my point, I think all of you are so convinced that Josh is superior you're writing off Jeff's ability before you even really listen. You had clearly written off Jeff's version of Judith without even hearing it.

I have a hard time believing that any of you would even be able to tell the difference between the two of them in a live track and I think that says something. If anything, the only differences I notice are things that Jeff improved.

Hi Jeff, what have been working on lately?

lololololol.

First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

jaimiej wrote:I'm a female.

Opinion invalidated.

jaimiej wrote:lololololol.

First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

Honestly, most of us here like Jeff but think Josh is better. But that's unfair because Josh is better than the majority of drummers out there.

jaimiej wrote:lololololol.

First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

First off - Ignore Tyson for the time being. He's just not worth engaging with until you understand his trollish behavior.

Now... By my count Jeff has only played with APC a couple dozen times or so, many fewer than Josh over the years. Saying "seen both men play countless shows with this band" may be an overstatement? How many shows have you seen?

Full disclosure: I've only seen Jeff live with Puscifer, and while I thought he was excellent, based on those shows and video & audio recordings of him with APC, I have to maintain my opinion that he's not in Josh's league. Josh is right up there with the best rock drummers on the planet and I haven't seen that kind of talent from Jeff.

That being said, I don't really see the value in comparing them other than a stating of opinion (which is what we are all doing). There's no definitive answer to be had here.

One final point: Josh created all of APC's drum parts (understanding that some of Billy's demos had rough ideas of course). Jeff was interpreting / approximating those parts playing them live. That's not an insult to Jeff, just fact.

jaimiej wrote:lololololol.

First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

Jeff ruined The Outsider. They were right about you part, Jeff decided to use his slugish skills and play like a 10 year old. Josh's ghosts notes is a part of that section of the song, makes it 10x better. If Jeff learned how to do proper ghost notes and do them at the right time, he'd be better in my eyes. Some examples; The Hollow, The Noose, The Outsider etc etc. I don't like him because he isn't Josh, I don't like him because he's worse.

Ettan wrote:

jaimiej wrote:lololololol.

First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

Jeff ruined The Outsider. They were right about you part, Jeff decided to use his sluggish skills and play like a 10 year old. Josh's ghosts notes is a part of that section of the song, makes it 10x better. If Jeff learned how to do proper ghost notes and do them at the right time, he'd be better in my eyes. Some examples; The Hollow, The Noose, The Outsider etc etc. I don't like him because he isn't Josh, I don't like him because he's worse.

Wow, Ettan felt so strongly about his point, he made it twice!

Kittaan wrote:Wow, Ettan felt so strongly about his point, he made it twice!

I love debating with women. GO FEMINISM

Ettan wrote:

jaimiej wrote:lololololol.

First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

Jeff ruined The Outsider. They were right about you part, Jeff decided to use his slugish skills and play like a 10 year old. Josh's ghosts notes is a part of that section of the song, makes it 10x better. If Jeff learned how to do proper ghost notes and do them at the right time, he'd be better in my eyes. Some examples; The Hollow, The Noose, The Outsider etc etc. I don't like him because he isn't Josh, I don't like him because he's worse.

Look how wrong you are.

They're nearly identical. You're mad about stylistic changes, not skill. You've got a pretty lame opinion, but I suppose that's your right.

Kittaan wrote:

jaimiej wrote:lololololol.

First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

First off - Ignore Tyson for the time being. He's just not worth engaging with until you understand his trollish behavior.

Now... By my count Jeff has only played with APC a couple dozen times or so, many fewer than Josh over the years. Saying "seen both men play countless shows with this band" may be an overstatement? How many shows have you seen?

Full disclosure: I've only seen Jeff live with Puscifer, and while I thought he was excellent, based on those shows and video & audio recordings of him with APC, I have to maintain my opinion that he's not in Josh's league. Josh is right up there with the best rock drummers on the planet and I haven't seen that kind of talent from Jeff.

That being said, I don't really see the value in comparing them other than a stating of opinion (which is what we are all doing). There's no definitive answer to be had here.

One final point: Josh created all of APC's drum parts (understanding that some of Billy's demos had rough ideas of course). Jeff was interpreting / approximating those parts playing them live. That's not an insult to Jeff, just fact.

Well I saw I think 10 shows in 2011 and I did the entire 2010 tour (and who knows how many times I saw Josh play in the years prior, I typically don't count shows but Ive been following APC for 13 years) on top of the fact that I've seen Jeff play lord knows how many times with Ashes.

You're right, Jeff is interpreting but that doesn't reflect on his skill level. That's my point.

My main complaint is that I wish people could just say nice things about Josh without insulting Jeff. If the dude in here had just said "MAN LISTEN TO LETS HAVE A WAR JOSH IS A BEAST" that is one thing, but to follow it up with "COMPARED TO THE NEW GUY" it's just fucking rude and unnecessary. Especially considering the fact that Jeff has never even played that song so really there IS nothing to compare which was my initial issue.

Clearly we all have a difference of a opinion and this discussion was likely a waste of everyone's time but all I ask is that people at least give Jeff a chance. I'm in no way shape or form saying he's a BETTER drummer than Josh, I just think he's comparable and much better than most people give him credit for.

Ettan wrote:

Ettan wrote:

jaimiej wrote:lololololol.

First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

Jeff ruined The Outsider. They were right about you part, Jeff decided to use his sluggish skills and play like a 10 year old. Josh's ghosts notes is a part of that section of the song, makes it 10x better. If Jeff learned how to do proper ghost notes and do them at the right time, he'd be better in my eyes. Some examples; The Hollow, The Noose, The Outsider etc etc. I don't like him because he isn't Josh, I don't like him because he's worse.

Well I can at least hear what you're talking about in The Outsider, not sure I would say it ruins the song but I suppose I could say the fact that Josh DOESN'T do the extra part in The Hollow "ruins" it for me. It's all about personal preference. I will certainly re-listen to both versions of The Noose and The Hollow today to see if I can pick out what your issues are. I am legitimately curious and this is the closest I have gotten to somebody providing me exact examples so I appreciate it.

Jeff sucks mohaha.

is this the drum roll you thought Jeff added to the package? wait a minute.. isn't this josh playing?

jaimiej wrote:First off, just because you don't like his approach stylistically does not necessarily mean he is of an inferior skill level. That said, I just listened to both versions and I am no expert but I fail to hear what you are referring to in The Package. If anything, Jeff added some rolls towards the end in the TAKE.WHAT'S.MINE. part that I think make the song sound better.

I'm a female and certainly not Jeff but as somebody who has seen both men play countless shows with this band I just get tired of people constantly insulting him with no real justification other than the fact that he isn't Josh. He's an amazing drummer and there's a reason why several bands use him in lieu of Josh and its because he's of a comparable skill level.

No they are absolutely not of comparable skill whatsoever. Josh is widely regarded as one of the better overall drummers around. Jeff is a fill in. Adequate but compared to Josh he is a child. Anyone who isn't a fanboi or fangirl can hear the difference between the two. Josh shits all over Jeff in every department. APC will never truly be APC again without Josh behind the kit.

^ But Moggie... how do you really feel about this. Don't hold back.

LOLz.

jaimiej wrote:Clearly we all have a difference of a opinion

Quite clearly. Some more than others. I do hear what you're saying, but yeah, it's probably best to just move on from this one. Hopefully it doesn't drive you away from the forum... wouldn't be the first time.

Oh no worries, I've been lurking long enough to know exactly what I was in for before I even started the discussion.

jaimiej wrote:Oh no worries, I've been lurking long enough to know exactly what I was in for before I even started the discussion.

Clever lurker. Cool.

anyone else thinks that the recording quality of the three night album performances is quite bad? those sound extremely dull to me. stone and echo sounds much better, however i think it has been mastered a little bit too loud...as usual nowadays... -.-

lukas wrote:anyone else thinks that the recording quality of the three night album performances is quite bad? those sound extremely dull to me. stone and echo sounds much better, however i think it has been mastered a little bit too loud...as usual nowadays... -.-

The only thing that bugs me is the crowd noise in the background.

I think the crowd noise is good, it gives you an idea of the energy in the venue at any given night. I think it's better than a sterile sound board

brewdog123 wrote:I think the crowd noise is good, it gives you an idea of the energy in the venue at any given night. I think it's better than a sterile sound board

I get your point but when people scream "FUUUUCK YEEEAH!!!!" during Fiddle and the drum it just ruins the moment..

Ettan wrote:

brewdog123 wrote:I think the crowd noise is good, it gives you an idea of the energy in the venue at any given night. I think it's better than a sterile sound board

I get your point but when people scream "FUUUUCK YEEEAH!!!!" during Fiddle and the drum it just ruins the moment..

Agreed.

There's a chick that yells "OH MY GOD YOU'RE SO FUCKING SEXY" at one point that I would like to slap square across the face. You're not at a fucking One Direction show, get it together bitch.

Meow, kitty likes to scratch!